The author of “Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World” shares his research, philosophy and practical exercises on how to become a more curious person and why it matters.
“I'm really interested in curators who have done the work of healing through their deep curiosity and then are thinking about what they can curate to help others on their journey. I can't think of anything that's more worthwhile and more meaningful than extending that vulnerability of your own healing journey and trying to support others on theirs.” — Scott Shigeoka, author of “Seek: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World”
In talking to curators about what it takes to be successful, one word that keeps coming up again and again is “curiosity.” Being curious — and pursuing curiosity with an open heart — is a superpower when it comes to curation. Turns out it’s also a superpower in life.
Scott Shigeoka wrote the book on curiosity (coming out on Nov. 14) and says we’re all born with it. He adds that curiosity is like a muscle: with practice, any of us can get better at it, and when we do, the effects are profound. In this conversation, Scott shares his research, philosophy and practical exercises on how to become a more curious person and why it matters in the first place.
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This transcript was generated by AI, which may affect its accuracy. As such, we apologize for any errors in the transcript or confusion in the dialogue.
Mia Quagliarello:
If you've listened to this podcast even just a little bit, you know that one of its goals is to understand how the best curators do their jobs. I asked my guests to deconstruct their process, and I tried to see which of their traits and values leads to success.
One word that keeps coming up again and again in these conversations is curiosity. Being curious, and pursuing that curiosity with an open heart is a superpower when it comes to curation. It's also a superpower in life. No one knows this better than today's guest, who literally wrote the book on curiosity.
What is curiosity? How can any of us get better at it? Why does it matter? And what's his advice for curators on how they can leverage curiosity in their own work?
That's today's episode.
Welcome to the Art of Curation, the show from Flipboard that explores the role of human tastes in a tech driven world. Each episode, we talk to someone who's an expert at finding signal and noise. People will do this for a living in media, tech, fashion, music and more.
I'm your host, Mia Quagliarello. Like you, I get overwhelmed by the sheer amount of content out there. I crave authentic people to guide me making smart choices that make my life better, people with taste — the real kind.
My guest today is Scott Shigeoka, the author of “Seek: How curiosity can transform your life and change the world,” which comes out on November 14. He's known for translating research into strategies that promote positive wellbeing in connected relationships. He's done this at UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center and through his courses at the University of Texas at Austin. Scott implements his curiosity practices in the public sector, Fortune 500 companies, Hollywood media organizations, educational institutions and small businesses. Scott really believes in the power of curiosity to transform yourself and society. And I think after this conversation, you will too.
Mia Quagliarello:
So Scott, you wrote a book called “Seek: how curiosity can transform your life and change the world”? What got you interested in this topic?
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah, well, first of all, I'm so excited to be on this conversation with you. And I think that curiosity is a topic well, first of all, let me define curiosity. I think that's really helpful to just ground us into this conversation, curiosity, I define it as the search for understanding. And you know, I always talk about, there's different levels of curiosity from shallow to deep, and shallow curiosity being more, how's your day? How are you? What do you do for work? What's your name? Where do you live, you know, things like that.
Then there's a deeper side of curiosity that goes beneath the surface questions that allow you to really understand the people that you're talking to their values, their stories, it's a lot more meaningful. So instead of what's your name, it might be what's the story of your name. I renamed that Who named you, you know, instead of where do you live? It might be what does home mean to you? Why is that important to you? And instead of what do you do for a job and might be, you know, when do you feel like you're flourishing? How would I know? Right? And so I like to start there before I talk about the origin story, because I think a lot of people have different conceptions of what curiosity is, it's for me, it's about the search for understanding and a particular kind of search that leads to connection. And it leads to transformation in some way.
I got interested in this topic, this deeper form of curiosity, really, on my road trip across the country in the wake of the 2016 presidential elections. I like probably so many people listening had felt such divisiveness and the family context in the workplace. And just generally in society, you couldn't turn on the news and not feel anger and rage and the hate that was directed and all sides. And so I went on this road trip for over a year, I basically lived out of my Prius I like took out the back seats, and I like put it in a bed platform I showered at Planet Fitness says which actually really nice showers. And I basically went to places where people quote unquote, seemingly hated me, you know, a mega church to a Trump rally to a group that was professing anti LGBTQ legislation. And what I realized is, I was holding a lot of stereotypes and a lot of discriminatory views on people because when I actually went to that Trump rally in Minnesota, when I actually went to that church, and Georgia, I actually learned that there were so many people who were similar to me, actually, who had a lot of the same values as me, who did not hate me. And those were just ideas and stories that I carried about myself. And I realized that through my curiosity, my deep curiosity, I was able to move past and transformed my perspective of who the quote the other was. And it made sense because so many people had directed that kind of one dimensionality towards me as queer as someone who's Asian American, you know, as someone who is progressive, you know, I've been on the receiving end of that to a lack of curiosity, where people thought that they knew everything about me as a queer person, or everything about me as someone who's Asian American, but there's so much more to me, right? No, two Asians, no, two queers. No two Republicans, no two Christians are the same. There's so much nuance and complexity. And I think that's what deep curiosity uncovers for us.
Mia Quagliarello:
But how do you begin to chip away at that edifice?
Scott Shigeoka:
I think for me, I've always come from a teaching and a research background. So right now, I'm affiliated with UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center. And I also teach courses at UT Austin. And so I'm always in the spirit of how do we break down things from the social science, for instance, from the research and translate them in a way that's really easily understandable. You know, I don't know of a lot of people listening. But sometimes, I read their white paper. And I'm like, what, I don't understand what this is trying to say. And I have to like really work with my peers, to really get to the juicy nuggets of that I think what's really important is that there's wisdom in the science that just needs to be understood more clearly, in the same way, that there's wisdom in the stories of people who I met the hundreds of people I met on my journey, who may never make it into a white paper, but also have really rich insights and wisdom around this topic of curiosity. And so as I spent the last five years just like listening, learning, being in conversation, understanding the research, what I, what I understood and took away as sort of like another layer above the road trip, is that there's a lot to back this, you know, with this proposition up that that deep curiosity can lead to connection and lead to transformation. So for instance, there's a lot of research to say that when you are a more curious person, you're able to unwind a lot of the anxiety that you feel. And we know that today, we are the most anxious, you know, workforce in the country. So far, you know, Gen Z, and millennials especially, are really demanding for mental health support, and to have a less stressful and a less anxious workplace. When we practice curiosity, we can actually unwind that anxiety. And I felt that in the conversations that I had on my road trip, right when I said, I'm really here to understand you, because I know that what I'm seeing on the news is probably not giving me the full picture. And I want to know you because I honor your humanity. And I really just want to understand, who are you beyond the title? Have you voted for Trump or are voting for Trump. And you would be so surprised how much people let go, they don't have this defensive stance anymore, they're actually leaning in a little bit more, they're a lot, their body position even opens up, and they're willing to receive you even though you might also represent what feels scary to them, or what gives them anxiety because maybe they've never met someone who's queer. Or maybe they've never had a deep conversation with someone who's progressive who they do not know. And so, for me, what I what I took away from that is, is you know, a lot of us are holding anxiety and fear inside of us as we navigate our lives. And curiosity has this big piece to try to solve for that.
There's also studies to show that, you know, when we're curious, we tend to have stronger relationships, we tend to turn towards the people around us. And I think that was really clarifying for me on the road trip. And through the science and through my conversations. I want anyone listening in to think about a time when they were in a conversation with a loved one, maybe a romantic partner, maybe a sibling, maybe a friend, where they didn't feel like curiosity was being extended towards them, right? For me, it feels like I don't matter. I'm not important. I'm being dismissed when someone's more interested in what's on their phone. When they when I feel like they're really not truly listening to me. And then I have folks then contrast that with a visualization of when they really felt like someone was extending curiosity towards them. How did that make you feel? And what people often say is like, wow, like, I felt good, I felt happy. I felt like I was listened to I felt like I mattered. I think that last piece of like us feeling like we matter is so key. And it's like why do my work like that's, that's my purpose is using curiosity to help people feel like they matter, because it's so so important today in the workplace and our families and communities and the society at large. And it reminds me of the story of Oprah who you know, has interviewed so many people for the last 20 years and she said As whether it's someone who has spent life in prison or whether it's Beyonce after she teaches me how to twerk. At the end of our conversations, I always get the same question. And that same question is, how was that? Like, was that okay? Did I do okay? Was that conversation what you were looking for? And what she realized and what I realized as well, on my road trip, a similar insight is, at the end of the day, everyone just wants to feel like they matter, that their story matters, that they have value and meaning in your life. And we can do that for others, the people around us by extending curiosity towards them, and that thus strengthens the relationship. So that's sort of the supporting case for what I was like seeing and feeling on the road trip.
Mia Quagliarello:
Now you've developed a model called dive, detach, intend, value and embrace. Can you tell me how you came up with this path to greater courage and curiosity?
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah, so first of all, curiosity is something that we're all born with, which is great, it's like a natural superpower. So I always like to tell people, there's no, you don't gotta find it anywhere, it's inside of you. And really, it's about unlocking or, you know, tapping into something that might be latent, or that you might not have a deep connection with, or deep practice around. We're all born with curiosity, because that comes from evolution, right? You know, our ancestors wouldn't have found water and food sources, you know, if they weren't curious, they wouldn't have been able to learn and develop tools. If they weren't curious, right. And even on this social curiosity, front around relationships, you know, having a strong kin tribe, you know, connection to others for survival is so key, right. And I think the same is true today, right? But our survival depends on curiosity for different reasons, because we have things like political polarization, and the climate crisis, and a lot of large existential problems that are going to really require us to be curious to learn and to connect, to really solve these problems. And so that's what I always start with is that we're born with curiosity.
And just like we're born with muscles on our body, we can develop them, we can go to the gym, we can, you know, do sports, like running or, you know, playing pickleball, you know, some thoughts like the end thing right now. You know, and we develop our muscles to get stronger, right? And so the same is true for curiosity. You can exercise your curiosity muscles, and they can get more and more sophisticated. And you can deploy them in more and more environments, right? So I always tell folks are maybe at the beginning of their journey of learning about curiosity, maybe as a leader in the workplace, and I'm really struggling with trying to, like, bring these skills into my one on one conversations or into my team meetings. Well, yeah, if this is your first time ever, I mean, that makes sense. And how do we have a little bit of self compassion, and ask for grace in those moments, and know that it is a muscle that when we continue to work on it, we build it and it gets stronger and stronger. So I wanted to give folks a model because, you know, I can be like, go to the weight room, and, you know, lift your weights and get that muscle, love it for you, you know, but if you don't have like, a regimen, if you don't have, you know, a set of exercises, you know, it's not really motivating. And it also is hard, structurally, right? Like you need some kind of structure to actually progress. And so I wanted to provide that for people with curiosity. And so I created this dive moto D, I V, and each of those letters stand for the four core muscle groups of deep curiosity. So D is detach, I is intend, V is value and ease embrace, and they all mean different things. And I go through them in detail in my book, “Seek.” And I also talk about exercises that you can do that are really fun, like, they're not like write a list and like, go and journal although like I'm, you know, I'm realizing the tone of my voice. Like, I'm sort of like, you know, dismissing that I guess, but it's because I think I've read so many books, in my own genre that I'm like, tired of writing reflections, and I wanted something in my body. I wanted something that was more immersive and experiential, things that were playful and fun. And so I really tried to do that with, you know, the number of exercises that you'll find in the book to actually, you know, pump up your curiosity muscles.
Mia Quagliarello:
Can you give me one example of one of those exercises?
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah, so, so let's talk about E embrace, which is, you know, even though it's called dive, it's not like a chronological or linear, you know, framework, you know, it's just sort of like Kubler Ross has, you know, grief journey We all grieve in different ways. And we all come to deep curiosity in different ways. Similarly, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about EA, because that's just on my heart right now EA is embrace, which means to welcome the hard times in our lives. And I just really think this is really special for me right now. I mean, as we're recording this, you know, I'm thinking about just how you know, I'm from Hawaii, and I'm just thinking about, like, a lot of, you know, friends, and you know, folks who I love that are, you know, affected by the wildfires on the islands. And just, I'm thinking about, you know, what just happened in Lake Arrowhead because I was just living nearby in Joshua Tree for a number of years, and where someone who ran a shop was displaying a pride flag, and that led to her being killed by someone that had so much hate in their heart, and just could not take that stance of love and be okay with it. I mean, just like, really horrific things are happening in the world right now, that really just impacted me on the heart level. And then not to mention, like the things going on in my personal life, you know, and I'm not going to go into any details. But I think that a lot of people are feeling the same way. Like in the world, it seems like every day you open up the news, and there's something that is deeply heart wrenching is happening that sometimes even affects our own communities. And then in our interpersonal lives, right, like, we have so many things happening as well. I mean, you go to work, and little do you know that the people around you might be struggling with aging parents who are having really challenging times with their health, or, you know, some of them are dealing with their own maybe cancer diagnosis and are struggling with that, or maybe their marriage is on the fritz or, you know, there's just so many things that are happening in people's lives. And it's, it can feel really hard and really taxing. So it was important for me in the book, to talk about deep curiosity, especially in those moments, because when you're grieving, when you're experiencing loss, when you're going through really challenging times, that's when deep curiosity can help you the most. And I got that insight. from folks like wildland firefighters, and end of life, doulas two types of people who work in very challenging environments that are that produce a lot of fear and anxiety, but really require curiosity and order to effectively move with and navigate that wildfire or to support and accompany someone who is dying low.
I talked about an end of life doula, a little Arthur in my book. And, you know, she says, like curiosity, which is really the act of, you know, accompanying witnessing and asking questions and listening and being there for someone who's dying is so critical for them, especially when they're having end of life anxiety. And that's something that's supported by so many other palliative care physicians, I've talked to end of life to this. I've talked to that when you're afraid of death, when you are scared of what's about to come in the pipe for you soon, because you're dying. The one way to alleviate a lot of that anxiety is to get curious to get curious about the life you've led, about the people who love you about death and what that's going to well, how you want that to feel like and how you want to die with dignity. And it feels a little counterintuitive to some people? Or why would I get curious about the thing I'm most afraid of? How is that helpful? Wouldn't that just spin me out more but especially when you're in the presence of someone skilled like an end of life doula and who knows how to use deep curiosity in an effective way it can actually be liberating. That was a long intro.
One of the exercises to embrace and to welcome the hard times is what I call quicksanding. And quicksanding is this practice of when you're in the desert, you're in quicksand, and you're like flailing your arms, you're like, I'm like sinking in this quicksand. Like, what do I do? You freaking out and you flailing your body is actually making you sink in further and faster into the quicksand. And so I use that as an analogy in the book. We are in quicksand in our life, always, you know, we're going through these hard times we feel like we're drowning. We're exhausted from all of these like responsibilities we have. How do we do the same things that we would do in physical quicksand in our lives, which is to slow down to take deep, mindful breaths, like really slow inhales and exhales? How do we use intentional movement that's really slow. So that just like we would free up the sand and kick up the sand and quicksand to allow ourselves to become buoyant and our bodies to rise to the surface. We can do the same thing in our lives. And that might look like you know, stretching it might look like walk you know, around the block Like, it might look like moving just particular parts of your body, it might be self soothing touch research has shown is really helpful in helping you cope. So that is one of the practices and a lot of folks are like, Oh, but like how does slow movement and slowing down actually lead to curiosity? Well, you know, think about inner conversation, right? If it's going really, really fast, and you're moving from one question to the next, if you don't slow it down by asking things like, tell me more about that? Or what do you mean by that? It can sometimes not get beneath the surface and not get to a deeper place.
Mia Quagliarello:
But I feel like you need to have awareness to kick start this process. But what if you don't know what you don't know? Like, you don't even know what you should be curious about? How do you open yourself up in these cases?
Scott Shigeoka:
Well, I would, if you're okay with us, I would kind of flip up towards the end, you know, if there's, you know, has there been a moment for you where, you know, maybe in a relationship at work, or, you know, in your personal life, there was something that you were struggling with, and that you felt like you're a little stuck on, but there was something that you didn't know, like you couldn't quite grasp? Like, how did you search for understanding to try to find out more and learn more and uncover a deeper understanding so that you could connect more deeply with that person yourself, and maybe even transform the relationship itself?
Mia Quagliarello:
I guess I've been trying to tune into my intuition a little bit more, and try to listen to what is my body telling me? What is my intuition telling me and take that as a signal of something that I should get curious about. So it's almost like almost subconscious if my body's reacting, and I'm trying to tune into that and try to understand what that information is telling me about what I need to explore. That's how I would approach it,
Scott Shigeoka:
I think that's so great. And that too, might seem counterintuitive to some people, but I think that's so beautiful, like a great embodied way of practicing curiosity, when you're, let's say, in a work relationship that you're really sort of struggling with, and there's tension and conflict about a project, and you're having these big feelings. And, you know, you're checking in with yourself in your body, and you're like, wow, where are these fillings sitting in my body? And what does that mean for me, and, you know, what is my gut saying about how I should move through this right through this experience, and your gut being different from your impulse, right, your gut being that like, intuitive, brilliant source of wisdom, whereas your impulse might be something that's a little bit more reactive, and sort of jumping on the feeling immediately, without thoughtfully and wisely, you know, you know, thinking or not thinking about feeling and, and intuiting on it. So I think that's a really great example of, of using curiosity, deep curiosity in your body, towards your intuition, asking those kinds of questions, as you're navigating, like a difficult relationship. And, you know, the same is true, extending it out towards another person, right, that, well, first of all, I would say, like, what you're practicing is what I call inward curiosity. So it's curiosity towards yourself. It's also what you know, a therapist might help a client do in a session is, you know, they're really getting you deeply curious, inwardly, like your own childhood stories, your own feelings, your own sensations in your body, and then articulating those. But then there's also two other directions of curiosity that I write about in the book. So there's inward, but there's also outward, which is about how do you get curious about the people around you, the systems around you, the culture around you, the nature around you? And then there's the beyond? Which is how do you get curious about what's not in the physical realm. So that might be seven generations from now, our ancestors who are no longer with us, it could be the divine or God or consciousness, whatever, you know, connects to your viewpoints and perspectives. So I would say to folks who are, you know, in a challenging situation, let's stay on the work example with someone who you're in conflict with, think about the the ways that you can be inwardly outwardly and beyond with your direction of deep curiosity. So you gave a great example for inward I think outward would be, you know, what are some of the questions that I might ask this person about where the conflict is stemming from and what's going on for them in their experience? You know, I know what's going on in my body. I know what feelings I'm feeling, but what's happening in their bodies, what's happening with their feelings, and, and how, how can we get to a shared understanding of that, right. And I think also outward curiosity is are there any structures or systems in the workplace that might be feeling you know, some of this conflict? Is there something that's maybe outside of the control of you both interpersonally that maybe you both need to consider? Enter or just be aware of? And then there's the Beyonds, right? So are there factors that aren't even in this room might not even be in the physical realm that might be impacting the way that you both are showing up? And, and causing friction and causing some forms of conflict and the relationship? And what might that look like? And where do you draw strength and courage from? What are the ways that you both can understand each other's you know, methods for drawing courage and drawing strength, and fortitude, which can help you in this relationship. And then when you come to the conflict on the relationship, in that way, it becomes so much more human. It's so much more connective, your understanding each other in a deeper way. It's almost cliche at this moment, but it's hard to hate someone whose story you know, right. And so getting to the crux of that will help you to actually solve the conflict that's at hand.
Mia Quagliarello:
You're really helping me see how curiosity you know, what I thought was a trait, you know, coming into this conversation is actually so much bigger than this. It's how we communicate, it's how we think it's how we tune into ourselves. It's our spirituality. So that's really amazing. But what's your take on AI and how curiosity is going to fare in this world where you know, AI serves us the most common sort of default, lowest common denominator information.
Scott Shigeoka:
First of all, so one of the things in my book is, you know, detach D, that's in the dive motto, detach means to let go of your assumptions, your biases, and certainty. And, you know, one of the practices I have in there is to become an emitter. We live in this world that reveres and even, you know, sort of encourages, I would say, and celebrates and rewards knowingness, this idea that, when someone says, like, I have all the answers like that, for some reason, and culture is really celebrated. When actually, you know, I think that we need to be ushering in, you know, a new era of intellectual humility and curiosity. We need to be an emitter and say, well, we don't know things. And we need to, you know, say that I don't have the answers. And instead, I'm coming in with a lot of questions and see questions is just as important, if not more important to as a currency than answers themselves, because that can get us to a deeper and a more long term understanding of something. So I say that, you know, because, you know, I felt this at the the really beginnings of social media, and I'm filling it again, in AI. It's there's a lot, I don't know, there's, you know, I wouldn't say that I'm an expert at all. And I think I have just a lot of questions about AI and what it means for us, I think one thing that feels clear to me, though, is that we're going to have all these tools developed, that are going to help to create more forms of, let's say, content, or, you know, entertainment, let's start there. I mean, there's so much, you know, possibilities with AI, but I'm just going to focus on that. So now you can write things and animate things and create visuals, really quickly using these AI tools. And, you know, I mean, obviously, there's this caveat of, you know, copyright and how it impacts artists. And, you know, the people whose work it's drawing from, you know, but the, the thing that comes to mind is that as that technology develops, and as people become more aware of it and more literate with it and start using it more, those technologies are only as useful as our human capabilities around things like curiosity, things like creativity, our ability to tell stories, you know, like, if we don't have those fundamental skills and practices in our own lives, you know, these technologies don't really mean anything to us, or can't really lead us to the promises that, you know, they are potentially offering us. And on the flip side, if we don't stay relentlessly curious, like, deeply, deeply curious, and thinking about who are the people that might be impacted by this technology? In what ways and how can we learn that? And what are the questions around boundaries around, you know, regulation, or legislation or policy, you know, whatever it is, like, if we don't stay deeply curious, we might allow this technology to become so unwieldly that we see a lot of the same things that we saw, you know, 100 years ago with, you know, the industrial revolution and look where that's led us right to a climate crisis to communities that are, you know, first and worse impacted by fossil fuel industries that are polluting the air, the water, you know, really affecting the climate that we live in. Um, you know, and I just wonder, can we not only have those kinds of deeply curious explorations about what the potential harms and consequences are, but also make them really visible? So I'm really curious about how do we make those conversations really visible and really at the forefront? Because there was a point in the climate crisis where, you know, researchers were saying, Hey, this is we're not going in a good direction. But a lot of that dialogue wasn't being elevated to the national spotlight, or it was being purposefully squelched, you know, by nefarious forces. And so I want us to say really, deeply curious about who might be the bad actors, you know, in this space? And what do we need to learn about them? And what can we do to protect people? And our planet? I think those are my two big questions around how does us be in service of the people in the planet? And how do we protect the people on the planet? Well, you know, AI is being developed.
Mia Quagliarello:
So it's probably about time I bring up curation, I asked my guests again, and again, what are the qualities of a good curator? And they always say that curiosity is a prerequisite. What do you think is the connection between curiosity and curation?
Scott Shigeoka:
Oh, my gosh, well, first of all, yeah, shout out to all the people who are saying that. Well, first of all, I'm curious, like, how do you define curation?
Mia Quagliarello:
I think for everyone that's a little bit different depending on their field. But for some of the people that I've asked this, they're curating information. So they kind of approached the job with a journalist mindset, and feel that they have to be open to what they don't know. And they have to pursue, you know, threads that lead them down rabbit holes that they may not have expected. So you have to kind of have that open mindedness in order to be able to sift through the firehose of information. And then repackage and reshare your take your POV on that information, add context and share it with the rest of the world.
Scott Shigeoka:
Yeah, that makes complete sense. I love that definition. I, it makes me think about two things, what three things. One is connection, the other is healing. And the last thing is personal growth, which are all three things that result from a practice of deep curiosity. There's so much that's out there in the world. I mean, it's, it's literally impossible for one person to digest everything that exists out in the world, and so much of what we discover, yes, might be from the products and the platforms we use, but it's also because of the relationships we have, and the communities that we're proximate to, or that we sit inside. And so, for me, you know, Curiosity is such a strengthener of connection, and also allows us to go deeper and deeper into our conversations and into the relationships we have with those we love or even, you know, the cashier at Trader Joe's or, you know, wherever you find yourself in a given day, and I think it is through that deep curiosity in that exploration, that you learn about new things that maybe you would not have encountered, because of our own, like I said, assumptions and biases and our own filters and our own bubbles. So I think that's really a huge intersection between deep curiosity. And curation is, when you start to meet people who are very different from you, who are maybe outside of the worlds that you operate in, you start to learn new things, discover new things, and you have this curation that feels so much richer. I think the second piece is around healing. If I'm curating something for let's say, a friend, like, maybe they're going through hard time and want to, like, curate playlists, or maybe they asked for some, some advice or support some like curating some, you know, ideas, you know, to support them, you know, or some content pieces that I really love watching, like, you know, the vulnerability animated YouTube video that Brene Brown narrates, you know, like, whatever that is. I always think about, you know, what are the ways that I've healed from the things I've experienced in my childhood and my past? And how did I heal? Why did I heal? And how can I extend that to others? I taught a course at UT Austin that's all about healing, individual and collective healing, and how do we go about designing and curating experiences and a portfolio of content that allows people to heal and so I think a lot about you have to go on your own journey of healing, which requires a lot of deep curiosity. You have to be willing to go in and like face and confront some of the things that have hurt you and harmed you obviously, oftentimes, if it's traumatic with the support of someone who is professionally trained, but then you work through it, and you hopefully come to the other side where you feel more grounded more resilient, you have more coping mechanisms, you feel more at peace, you feel more acceptance. Whatever it is that healing journey is supposed to bring to you, you now have so much more real context and purpose around how to create something of meaning and value to someone else who's going through that same kind of situation. And, you know, I think healing is the big issue of our time. It's up there. With AI, it's up there with the climate crisis, you know, like we are in a mental health epidemic right now. I mean, especially for young folks too, and, and also, you know, an aging community that's becoming more socially isolated. So I'm really interested in curators who have done the work of healing, through their deep curiosity, and then are thinking about, okay, what can I curate, to help others on their journey, I can't think of anything that's more worthwhile and more meaningful, and more beautiful, than extending that vulnerability of your own healing journey and trying to support others on theirs. And then the last piece is personal growth, right, which is, you know, we always ask, like, you know, when, when we receive, let's say, we're on the receiving end of getting something that's curated for us, like, what's in it for me? Like, how am I going to learn from those? What am I? How am I going to benefit from this, right? And so that's always really interesting to be deeply curious about, when I send this before I send this out to whoever your audience is, you know, it could be a friend, it could be your organizational list, like, it could be, you know, on on your Flipboard. You know, what, whatever it is? What is it that I'm trying to help people to learn? Or how do I want them to grow as a result of them, you know, experiencing what it is that I've curated? Right? And I think before you press send, just bringing in a little more intention and thoughtfulness by exercising that deep curiosity muscle is really key. You can even do little experiments, right? Like you could, you know, put that curation in front of a couple of people and test whether that is true, you know, whether that assumption is true, are people actually learning and growing in the ways that you thought this curation would cause before sending it out to a much larger list? But yeah, I think that, you know, really keying into the personal growth that people want to make, because that's, you know, 101 for adult pedagogy and learning, you know, we're no longer a child where a teacher or parent tells us when to learn, we're only going to learn as adults on our own time and our honor with our own agency, if we see the benefit for us, and we see how we're going to grow. So I think connection, healing, personal growth, if you have those three things in mind and use deep curiosity to explore those things, your curation is going to be like, off the chain. Well, what
Mia Quagliarello:
What do you think curators should know about curiosity that might not be clear to them?
Scott Shigeoka:
I think that, you know, the reason why I wrote my book, “Seek,” is because so many folks were coming to me. I'm realizing now like some of them were curators, a lot of them were business leaders. Some of them were parents, and teachers and therapists and people who are just generally trying to understand how do I move through this world of division and hard times and toxic polarization. And, you know, I realized that not only do folks not truly understand the expansiveness of curiosity, like you had mentioned even on this interview, but I think also folks are like, Okay, I understand what curiosity is, now. I know why it's important. But how do I do it, like how to actually bring this into my life into my work into my relationships, I think that's where people get stuck. And so I want to let folks know that there are really simple, easy, everyday ways that are playful, fun, energy giving and joyful, that are exercises that help you to, you know, beef up your curiosity, muscles, like it is out there, we know that these exercises work from the research. And we know from the many, many conversations that those of us in the field have had with different people in various communities. So I would just remind folks, like there is a path, there is a way to get more curious. And obviously, you know, you can, you can buy the book “Seek” or you can just look into your own intuition and into your own body, just like you had mentioned, right, like, there's so much wisdom that we already have, that sometimes we trap, you know, underneath the, the, the exterior walls, I guess that, you know, distance who we are from the outside world. So, I think a lot of folks forget that, you know, curiosity is literally something we're born with. It’s in our DNA, is something that comes from evolution, you know, and yeah, just like sex, right? Like we have to learn how to do it. Well, we have to practice it. We need to use communication, we have to get better over time. But you know, at the end of the day like for, you know, people out there listening if you want to be more curious because you see the benefits for it to unwind your anxiety for it to strengthen your relationships for it to like, bring you more happiness and life satisfaction, all these smorgasbord of benefits that it has no, that there is a path forward. And it's really easy to integrate into your life. Because I think if people feel like the barrier is too high, right? That folks might be like, well, that's like, I don't want to do that, like, I'm already, like, so busy. And that's the other thing that I talked about in the book, too, is that, you know, it actually will free up more time for you. Because as you get more deeply curious, you'll understand what are the things that actually help you to flourish? What are the relationships that are actually important to you? And also, most importantly, and that's where I have a whole chapter on this, you know, what are the boundaries that you need to be setting up? Right? Like, I don't think deep curiosity is like Kumbaya, like, let's all people of all political views, like come together, drink tea, and like, be one, you know, not all polarization is bad. You know, like, we need polarizing views, because that allows new voices and stories and experiences that are often unheard, and are often oppressed to come to the surface. And that might make people uncomfortable. And that might cause polarization. But that's not bad, necessarily. It's when it becomes toxic, and we can no longer work together. That's what we need to fight right moving away from canceling and cutting people off. But there are moments when we need to create a boundary, because we've tried so hard to extend our curiosity. But we're just not getting it back, you know, years. And I talked about a mother daughter relationship where this is happening, a daughter who's tried for years to connect with her mother, and it just didn't happen. And it just causes her pain every time she talks to her to and it's actually an act of self love to create a boundary and say, I'm no longer going to have this person in my life. Right? And that you can only arrive to that boundary. And you can only think about how am I actually going to extend that boundary and enforce it, you know, if you are deeply curious, right? And so, you know, Kid deep curiosity is not without its boundaries. And that's really key to understand. And also, again, I can't emphasize this enough, it's a muscle like, I'm not expecting folks who are on the beginning of their journey to like, go to a rally of the opposing political party that might be really hard and challenging and also unsafe for many people. And so I think that's really key. The final thing I'll say, just as like a, an interesting thing around curation and, you know, curiosity, and what it is and what it isn't. I have this term in the book called predatory curiosity, which is, it looks like you're being curious, but you actually ain't, you know, like, you're asking questions, but there's actually some kind of agenda, or some kind of like, gotcha moment that you're about to like, put on someone. And I think a lot of us have been on both ends of this kind of a conversation, like you're answering all these questions. And then suddenly, someone's like, See, I told you, you're in the wrong, like, I caught you, you know, in your lie, or I caught you, you know, in your contradiction with this issue. And that doesn't make you feel good, but doesn't make you feel like you matter, right? Even though you asked all the questions, and it may and maybe looked like curiosity. So true curiosity, is to come in with a completely open heart towards you know, other people or even towards yourself, because sometimes we can be the most hitting the most critical towards our own selves, to really come in with an open heart, and to come in without judgment without an agenda, and to truly listen and truly understand what it is that someone is trying to tell us. And it is only from that place that we can build the connection on the transformation that we're looking for.
Mia Quagliarello:
So I'm interested in like the books, the movies, the music, the podcast, that had a big impact on your curiosity journey on yourself that you would recommend to others because you just love them so much.
Scott Shigeoka:
I love that. Yeah, I think that there's a lot of really interesting, you know, books and movies that, you know, it's not just about, you know, like the topic of curiosity. They're just like, really interesting for me, I guess right now. You know, I just read “Yellowface,” which was, you know, I love fiction, even though I'm a nonfiction writer, and I just felt so connected to that book, because it's about an author or an Asian American author. And it's a thriller. It's exciting. It's fun, but it made me realize that whether it's fiction or nonfiction when you see yourself on the page, didn't you feel represented and you feel like oh my gosh, like I feel so seen and heard and this it just makes you feel so good. And I guess it inspires you to want to see what else is out there.
You know, I watch rewatched a movie, chemical movie recently crazy sci fi dot y after the Patsy Cline song title, and it's to coming of age for queer Canadian but Boy and as he grows into becoming a young adult, and I just like really resonated with a lot of the family dynamics, and just the conversations and the struggles of coming out, and the shame that sometimes you can feel locked into, I just felt like, wow, it was so interesting to because I hadn't watched that film for like, a decade. And I just recently watched it with my partner. And I was just like, oh my gosh, like, I feel. So again, seen and like, represented in this film. And I think that it's because growing up, you know, someone in Hawaii, someone who's Asian American, I mean, like, now I'm so happy. There's people who look like me and are like me, who have a lot more movies and TV shows and books to draw from that are not only created by people who look like me and are like me, but you know, who star or you know, have protagonists or characters that look like me and who are like me, but I don't think that was really the case, you know, 30 plus years ago. And so it was very few and far between, at least in the US market. So I just am I'm just feeling honestly like a warm blanket. Of of love and heart embrace like cuddles, you know, like me like knowing that, you know, that that kind of entertainment is coming out and I'm just like, wow, like this is so good for the next generation. And even my generation obviously.
Mia Quagliarello:
If you want to connect with Scott, he recommends reaching out on Instagram at @scottshigeoka. In fact, he says he loves responding to readers and others who are curious about this topic. Reach out if you've tried the exercises we talked about here or in his book.
We've put the links to everything Scott's recommended in the Flipboard Storyboard that you'll find in this show’s notes. Big thank you to our audio editor Anh Le. If you want to find out more about Flipboard where enthusiasts are curating stories they recommend across 1000s of interests, download the app or head over to our website at flipboard.com Anyone can be a curator at Flipboard. Simply create an account and start flipping to share your ideas with the world.